Do Health and Safety Professionals Get too Much of a Kicking?
Recently I have posted about how “health and safety” concerns lead to - in my view - too many urban trees being removed unnecessarily, as exemplified by this quote:
“The council says the trees are a trip hazard but as far as we can establish nobody has ever fallen over them.”
Radio 4 Today Programme Interview
This morning there was a fascinating interview on the Radio 4 Today Programme with a representative of the Institute of Occupational Health and Safety about who is responsible for the so called “Conkers Bonkers” Health and Safety stories. They could be compared to the EU “ban bendy banana” stories, but I wonder if there is a little more substance to at least some of them.
Here is the interview audio: it is 4 minutes long
The IOSH is waging a campaign to persuade us that they are not at fault for all the “Bonkers Conkers“, and to deal with some of the “elf ‘n’ safety myths” that are out there.
The interview is well worth a listen.
So what do I think?
They have the wrong target
Ray Hurst (the interviewee) suggests that the problem is that bad advice is being given by people who are are not professionally qualified. His key message is that such mad advice does not come from his professional members, but from “managers” who do not have enough knowledge. As a member of the public I cannot tell (and I’m not interested in) the difference between a Health and Safety Adviser, and a Health and Safety Manager - and I don’t care who is responsible in an organisation that is giving me spurious advice. I want the bad advice to stop.
[Edit 17/8/2007: I am told via the IOSH forums that one key issue which Ray Hurst was raising - and I may have misunderstood - is that non-professionally qualified managers (who usually are just managers not "Health and Safety" specialists) think they are qualified to give advice, when they are not. I think I heard it as I have recorded it here - but I'm happy to acknowledge the intention and that I may have misheard. You can contribute your view in the comments box below.]
I am receiving bad advice from an organisation - I am not interested in “not me - it was him” finger pointing between different people and groups. My only concern is that I am getting bad advice.
Illustrating my Point
We all know that these stories happen. Here is one from the Scotsman via Mr Eugenides about the risk to funeral attenders of putting a coffin in a grave when the dead bloke happened to be fat:
Mourners attended a funeral an hour after the coffin had been buried - because its weight had sparked health and safety fears, it emerged yesterday.
The interment at the Hills of Dunipace Cemetery was carried out without family and friends present on the orders of Falkirk Council. It is understood that the dead man, who was aged in his mid-30s, was 6ft 6in and weighed about 25 stone.
Council officials said they were concerned about the health and safety of staff. As a result of the decision, an hour after the body was buried the cortège followed behind a hearse that contained only flowers. [...]
The funeral director, Graham Easton, of Alexander & Easton in Bonnybridge, near Falkirk, said: “I can confirm that, on the instruction of Falkirk Council, we took a person due to be interred at 11:30am to Hills of Dunipace at 10:30am.
“That person was taken there by hearse, then transferred to a church truck. At the grave, the coffin was lowered with dignity and respect, and the cords left at the grave to allow family and friends to complete a symbolic burial when they arrived after the service in our rest rooms.”
Mr Easton added: “In nearly 30 years as a funeral director, this is the first time I have been given such a request, and it is true I was not happy about it and did not see any need for it.
“Frankly, I found the entire episode quite bizarre,” he said. “The coffin was large, but by no means unmanageable.”
The advice is perceived as coming from “the Local Council”. Ray’s comments are professional infighting, as far as I am concerned.
The Right Target
It seems to me that the real need is not to exonerate the IOSH from any role in generating stupid advice (the public couldn’t care less who’s fault it is), but to stop the stupid advice being generated in the first place.
And in that the likes of IOSH have a crucial role. They are the ones who know how to do it properly. I think Health and Safety Professionals have two responsibilities here:
- To stop people who are giving bad advice.
- To educate those same people so that they either give good advice to the limit of their ability, direct enquiries to the right people, or shut up.
Members of bodies such as the IOSH have the professional responsibility to assert their authority, and to set the culture for their organisation and the limits of action for non-professionals.
I think they perhaps need to come to the realisation that such action would be entirely reasonable, and exhibit more professional self-confidence when dealing with those who do not know what they are talking about.
Even the Chief Executive of a County Council needs - if he is giving Health and Safety Advice outside his competence - a metaphorical blowtorch holding to his cojones. How many Health and Safety professionals would do it?
For comparison, if health service managers were out there giving medical advice, the BMA would - rightly - have their balls for breakfast. Ditto the Institution of Civil Engineers if I started telling people how to build bridges or dams.
All of this of course, is dependent on the Professionals giving the right advice - but I am (broadly) taking that as read.
Why is the IOSH so inward looking?
It will be obvious that I think the IOSH is rather inward looking. I posted a detailed comment on the thread about the Radio 4 interview, as the only member of public who had bothered to visit (for the record this is a public forum). This is a short excerpt from my comment:
You made a good argument, however I think I detected a certain amount of sloping of shoulders on the “overcautious advice from non-professionals causing problems” issue.
If managers without a proper training are out there giving advice (especially within Local Authorities etc), whose job is it:
a) to stop those managers giving bad advice?
b) to educate them?Exactly - that would be a role for IOSH as the OSH professional body.
And the Health and Safety people seemed more interested in arguing about whether the Organisation’s President - who was interviewed - has insulted Technician Members vis a vis Chartered Members by mentioning the latter and not the former in his interview. Talk about ferrets in a sack.
As Paul ********** and Martyn ******* put it [Edit: asterisks added 17/8/2007] :
>Why do we have to go through the torture of non chartered members feeling victimised just because Ray mentioned seeking advice from a Chartered H&S Practitioner”
This interview was a window on the world for IOSH to promote both sensible H&S management and itself as a professional body. It was therefore appropriate to refer to our Chartered status. (In part it will inform the public that as an institution we have professional status)
Can’t we get past this endless naval gazing
>I see no ships!
>Probably can’t see the ships because we are too busy looking at ourselves.
Couldn’t put it better myself.
Come on boys - wake up! It’s supposed to be a PR campaign to help the public understand Health and Safety and how you are abused incorrectly. We’re out here listening. Talk to us. Pretty please.
What can you do?
I think this is potentially a good conversation, so I would encourage other political bloggers to get a debate going involving the public.
If you visit the forum, do bear in mind that you are a guest, and that the forum debate is polite and professional. There are two threads: Radio 4 Interview and Has the world gone mad. Devil’s Kitchen or Ministry of Truth, it is not. I wonder if Mutley the Dog, David Osler or John Redwood have a view on this. Incidentally, John Redwood refutes Polly Toynbee’s statements about his (alleged by her) proposals to undermine Health and Safety law recent report on deregulation.
I think that this forum would do well to have a few visitors dropping in from the outside world.
What have I done?
In addition to this article, I have also:
- Commented on the blog of the Chief Executive of the Institute of Health and Safety. Not regularly updated - so don’t hold your breath for a response.
- Sent a note to the IOSH press office asking about “Conkers Bonkers” stories on the website.
Let the debate commence.
And a couple of questions for the IOSH
Where are the Health and Safety bloggers? We are positively infested (in a nice way) with medical bloggers - why not Health and Safety? If you are out there, give me a shout and I will write about you.
The Bonkers Conkers campaign was announced back in May. Why can’t I find any examples on your website two and a half months later? It’s a PR opportunity from heaven.
Tags: bonkers conkers, health and safety, institute of occupational health, iosh, ray hurst[tags]bonkers conkers, health and safety, institute of occupational health, iosh, ray hurst[/tags]
Article Series - Health and Safety: Bonkers Conkers
- Do Health and Safety Professionals Get too Much of a Kicking?
- Bonkers Conkers and Health and Safety: Response from the Institution of Occupational Health and Safety
- Britblog Roundup #131 Audio Podcast
- Blogs which cover Health and Safety Questions: Dealing with Bonkers Conkers
- Cartoon: Take care in the operation of technology…
- Britblog Roundup #131
- Health and Safety Month: Bonkers Conkers stories, Public Relations and The Profession
- Do not exceed the stated dose - Health and Safety series
- Health and Safety Gone Mad: Crossing Your Drive Safely
- Bonkers Books about Health and Safety
Categories: Health and Safety, News - Current Affairs, Politics
A comment from Barbie:
August 15th, 2007
The reality is that most h & s people are too gutless to stand up to managers. There is very little respect out there for the HSE. You only have to look at the NHSLA site to discover how much is being paid out in terms of claims. All of these incidents could have been avoided. I stood up to a manager, followed the rules and lost my job. I was ordered to change reports in case they got into the public domain. Is it any wonder that h & s people bury their heads in the sand. h & s tend to think that they are qualified to do everything. This suits big companies. Thus why on the IOSH website you have so many quearies, which any competent person should be able to answer when they hold a post.
cheers Barbie.
That brings it straight back to the integrity of the organisation and whether top management (and there political masters when in the public sector) will follow their principles when it may be going to hurt…
Barbie - it’s not clear from this little diatribe whether you still work (or ever did) in H&S or not - care to enlighten us?
“Too gutless to stand up to managers”? I don’t think so. Most H&S people I know have done exactly that on many occasions. I am lucky - I don’t need to “stand up to” the managers in my company as I am a part of the management team and my opinion is listened to. Why do you portray it as though “H&S people” and “managers” are:
a) on opposing sides, and
b) mutually exclusive?
Frankly in my experience it’s better to be part of the team running the business - that way you know and understand what is going on and can be properly involved in decisions.
You say that all the claims incidents on the NHSLA site could have been avoided? Really? You have personal knowledge of all these incidents then do you? You do realise that most of them are nothing to do with H&S? I’ve dealt with industrial EL claims for about 10 years now and believe me very few are as straightforward as they first seem. The claims letters issued by most solicitors make the employer sound like the devil incarnate. Most would have not even the remotest possiblity of succeeding if the burden of proof for civil law was the same as in criminal law. In the end most are paid out because it is cheaper to settle than to pay the vastly inflated success fees charged by “no win no fee” lawyers.
I’m sorry to hear that you got sacked for doing what you thought was right but I fail to see why that’s lead on to your massive diatribe against all H&S people. I certainly don’t know many who bury their heads in the sand - for most of us it’s simply not in our nature. You than go on to say “h&s think they are qualified to do everything” - another non sequitur which leads me to wonder if you simply strung together a load of random sentences when writing your reply? What on earth is the relevance of this comment to the rest of your argument - mind you I’m struggling to see what your argument is at this point.
As for the queries on the IOSH website - don’t be such an intellectual snob. We all have to learn - even you I dare say. Knowing what you don’t know and knowing when to ask is a heck of a lot more sensible than pretending you do know and finding that really you don’t when it all goes wrong. Bear in mind also that the forum is a public forum and many of the questions on there aren’t from members.
Anyway I didn’t come here to write all this in answer to you! I came to make my own post. So although it is probably rude to reply to yourself, I’ll post this now and then make my own contribution in a separate post straight after.
Rudely replying to myself - this is cross-posted to other sites where Matt posted his original - hope that’s OK!
It’s nice to have comments on the IOSH forum from someone outside the profession, thanks for taking the trouble to come over. So I thought the least I could do was return the favour At the outset I’ll say I am a H&S professional but other than being a member for some 20-odd years I do not have any formal connection with IOSH and do not in any way speak for the Institution.
Any profession has in-fighting and petty squabbling going on (love the ferrets picture BTW). Show me one that doesn’t and I’ll show you one where the passion just isn’t there for the people involved in that profession. However you’re right that the thread in question wasn’t the place for it, although I think most people posting had misinterpreted what Ray said.
So why is H&S always the bad guy? I am proud to be a H&S person but I always expect incoming whenever meeting anyone for the first time and getting the question “so what do you do?” Why? Well everyone always has a smart alec comment and it’s usually got naff all to do with H&S. It’s nearly always related to some bonkers conkers story where someone has claimed “compo” (remember folks where there’s blame there’s a claim!) for something ridiculous or where some event (very often requiring local government permission) has been cancelled and ‘elf’n’safety has been blamed.
So why does it happen? Well I don’t necessarily subscribe to the fact that it’s due to poor advice by people who aren’t safety professionals, although that undoubtedly plays its part. I think it’s got more to do with the decay in the fabric of our society, which means that everyone wants to blame someone else and no-one ever wants to take responsibility for their own actions. Ooer - that sounds a bit sweeping doesn’t it? let me expand.
So, the world being what it is, someone decides to put on some event or carry out some job which is a bit risky. Not wanting to go over the top we have some “common sense rules” put in place. Of course sooner or later people fail to follow them and someone gets hurt, what do you suppose happens next? There will of course be a court case and lots of lovely money - which judging by my experience of common law claims means big fat fees for the solicitors. Next time round, the insurance company will (probably understandably) baulk at providing cover for the party that was sued unless either the premium goes up or stringent precautions are put in place to stop a recurrence. In the end it all becomes too much trouble to continue - events get cancelled, charities get stopped from having fun days, supermarkets won’t let entertainers blow up balloons and remembrance day parades are threatened with cancellation because it’s too expensive to close the roads to ensure public safety.
What can be done about it? All safety professionals whether or not they are IOSH members should be doing their bit to change this culture of risk aversion not risk management. Risk is part of our everyday lives and no-one wants to see it removed - let’s just learn to control it properly. It would help if the press stopped quoting ‘elf’n’safety as being to blame for things which are manifestly nothing of the kind and if perhaps the general public stopped seeing us as evil incarnate and a drain on business.
As a final word ask yourself which headline would sell most papers:
“Council officials won’t pay up to have roads closed after some selfish motorist swerved round the barriers and hit the crowd last year” or
“Health and Safety stops Remembrance Day Parade”
I look forward to hearing what people think!
Thanks for making H&S and IOSH the subject of your blog. One point to start with. You mention that the forum you visited is an open public forum. Thus you cannot take it that anything said or any attitudes or response are actually being made by members. So your allegation is a touch harsh I feel. There are some trolls out there after all.
That said, I did not see the thread until very late today and thought I would accept your invitation and do a bit of blogging. I do agree that we need to be holding the debate beyond our own website.
I know that many H&S people find the current “lets blame H&S” as frustrating as others find both the all too frequently stupid situations reported in the press and the perceived increase in prohibition as the remedy.
Of course, part of it is that it is the turn of H&S to be the “blamed and untouchables” just as chartered accountants and lumberjacks before us. (To refer to an iconic comedy programme of yesteryear)
For me as a safety professional, the issue is one of sensible decision making and I choose the word sensible rather than competent.
So, if we take an example of the woman who wishes to tend the garden in the middle of the local road junction. I would love to think that she can just do her thing without imposing duty on any other person or organisation but can she?
How many laws, regs or codes might apply to her? Who, other than the woman, would have responsibilities, liabilities and duties arising from the various laws? Are these all H&S or are there laws, regs and codes from other areas?
How many of us could answer those questions with certainty, not just with barrack room belief? Not too many I suggest, and yet we are happy to condemn H&S out of hand because the woman cannot tend her garden.
Now, for the sake of discussion, lets assume the organsiation we work for has some duty here. Now we have to decide whether we want to find a way to help her or a way to get rid of her. Guess what many hard pressed / cash strapped / politically exposed organisations are going to do–that’s right, its H&S to the rescue!!
Only it isn’t and if you are prepared to think about it, for a moment or two, I hope you can see that clearly too. Maybe some of the laws do need review, maybe interpretation and judgement in the courts is out of step with modern life, maybe we all need to be better at making sensible decisions and maybe just constantly knocking H&S will get in the way of real improvement.
All I know is that we all need to keep trying to be better at making those sensible decisions
I see you did get an initial response from Lisa on her blog within about 90 minutes; not too long to hold your breath I hope!
Lets hope other comment start to come in soon as well.
>>As a member of the public I cannot tell (and I’m not interested in) the difference between a Health and Safety Adviser, and a Health and Safety Manager
Oops- looks like only part of my comment posted. Any chance you can sort it out, I suspect by deleting the second set of angle brackets? It was a bit long and I don’t want to type it all again!
There is very little practical difference between a H&S advisor and a H&S manager. They are only job titles reflecting, perhaps company culure, size, pay levels. Each should have an appropriate level of experience and competence in H&S (academic qualifications are NOT a requirement. Competence is)
What we do complain about is the other kinds of “managers” who do not have any H&S experience or competence and are only going by hearsay. Or are trying to justify a dodgy decision and landing on Health and Safety as an inarguable argument.
In addition to the above, the great majority of H&S professionals are in the unfortunate position of being regarded by higher managment as being quite junior, low down the tree. Thus they are easily overidden and browbeaten. As a race we tend not to answer back. (it’s safer and healthier. Careerwise) I have known H&S directors of multi-nationals who are just ignored by other directors.
Those that do answer back and argue tend to move on, hopng to find another employer who will actually listen and take professional advice.
Incidentally, the “navel gazing” in IOSH is an echo of when chartered status was achieved about two years ago. The qualification/career path for some was drastically changed and some members felt a bit hard done by. And are still moaning.
About two years ago a lady member of IOSH posted the following :
“A Mantra for Safety Professionals : We are the unwilling lead by the unknowing, doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long with so little that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing”
That mantra has been pinned to my office wall for so long that it now harbours a unique species of spider. One that devours incautious insects.
Merv Newman (30 years in the job)
Look at it from another angle, why is there so many deaths and injuries every year from work, the vast majority is because employers see H&S as an ‘unwelcome overhead’ and do it because they are forced to by statute law, and quite a few try their hardest not to spend the money to ensure safety and hope they do not break the 11th commandment “Thou shall not get caught”.
H&S is a young profession and we act in a professional manner however it is employers at the end of the day who have to put into place the recommendations and for whatever reason some do not, so don’t blame us!! Unless you got bad advice.
There is NO LEGAL requirement to appoint a H&S Manager/ advisor call them what you want, just to appoint a competent person to advise on H&S.
So you can do a small training course of a couple of weeks, if you want, and then set yourself up as a H&S Consultant - and you don’t even have to do that! The courts then decide if this was Ok as a result of the 11th commandment.
IOSH have now got chartered status and the route to this ‘CMIOSH’ is clearly defined however there are still people who hold a grevience as they now have to do CPD and a peer review before ‘CMIOSH’ is granted, and they want the free meal ticket and are sometimes not always IOSH members.
As far as the ‘open forum’ goes this is regularly subscribed to by people from across the globe and there are some on there who do post ’spam’ questions to try and get a stupid reaction.
You do not know who is giving the advice and what their H&S competence level is - it may be duff info!
Remember compliance with statute H&S is a MINIMUM legal requirement and a lot of employers out there see this a an aspiration - just look at the HSE notices and prosecutions data base, and this is only where an enforcement intervention has taken place and it is quite rare as most are by way of written / verbal warnings.
I will only get a visit once every 10 years so why bother and the level of fines is paltry, why pay £50k to do something if I am only going to get a £2k fine??
Thanks for all the comments.
I’ll be thinking and will post a response in the next couple of days.
More reactions are welcome.
[...] had a detailed response from the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health to my article “Do Health and Safety Professionals Get too Much of a Kicking?” I reproduce it full [...]
[...] had a detailed response from the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health to my article “Do Health and Safety Professionals Get too Much of a Kicking?” I reproduce it full [...]
[...] article is here includes a rebuttal interview with Radio 4. There was a response from the President of the [...]
[...] article is here includes a rebuttal interview with Radio 4. There was a response from the President of the [...]
As a quasi health and safety professional, I think most of these issues come from the interpretation of overly complicated legalese both government and corporate that managers and health and safety professionals have to work with. Everybody is looking to reduce risk not just to employees, but also to organisations. This is where some of the conkers bonkers stuff comes from. I have found health and safety professionals all over the world to be pretty level headed, if a little anal in their analysis of situations. We have to remember that many things that we do routinely at home, we cannot or should not do at work.
like any issue there are always extremes. we should concentrate on the great job that these systems have done to reduce loss of life, injury….. just go and evaluate industrial faciliites in India, China, the Philippines, indonesia, if you want to know what I mean.
it is easy to laugh about balloons and clowns, but the issues are serious and important.
A quick note that I have done the weekly “Pods and Blogs” roundup on Radio 5 and mentioned the Health and Safety debate.
The written version of the roundup is here:
Britblog 131
The audio segment (about 5 minutes) is here:
BritBlog Podcast 131
MAtt
[...] professional status 21 08 2007 The Wardman Wire publishes a response to an earlier blog post from Director of Communications, Ruth Doyle, at the Institution of Occupational Health and [...]
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[...] have been covering the questions around “bonkers conkers” stories on this blog, here and here [...]
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